Jeff is correct concerning the details of the Canadian police investigation that resulted in arrests of 45 people. It is true that only 17 of them were full patch HAs and it is true that NONE of the seized materials came from property owned by HAs. But ALL of the those arrested are affiliated with motorcycle gangs.

A further 10 of those charged are associates of the HAs, and an additional man is a ‘hang around’ who is also the son of one of the arrested full patch members.
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1121724988749_117134188/?hub=TopStories
Three others were members of another ‘club’ called the Renegades.

In what the media have labeled a ‘turf war’ the Montreal HAs and another motorcycle gang, the Bandidos affiliate Rock Machine, it is often stated that more than 150 people were killed during the late 1990’s. At least nine Hell’s Angels are serving prison sentences for their role in this situation, including the president of the club Maurice Boucher. Members of the club were found guilty of shooting journalists and peace officers.

In 2006, eight Canadian members of the Bandios MC were killed by another member of the gang.

I have pasted at the bottom of this comment a list of HAs members whose names have come up in the public media in Canada. Not all of them have criminal records or have been arrested for crimes (although most have). I did not compile this 2001 list, but found it here http://www.tribemagazine.com/board/showthread.php?t=105091

So while it may be as you say, Jeff, that motorcycle gangs are unfairly discriminated against by the Canadian legal system, their members do seem to have more legal problems than most.

BC

Lloyd Robinson East End
Rick Ciarniello East End
Juel Ross Stanton East End
Carlo Fabiano East End
Damiano Dipopolo East End
John Bryce East End
Ron Cameron East End
Tom Robert Leonard East End
David Giles East End
Michael Christiansen East End
Norman Edward Krogstag East End
Cedric Smith East End
John Virgil Punko East End
Randall Potts East End
Jean Violette East End
Elie Bruneau Haney
Vince “Stocky” Brienza Haney
Werner Gonzalez Haney
David O’Hara Mission City
Kim Harmer Mission City
Fred Widdifield Nanaimo
Randy Basaraba Nanaimo
Steve Larry Elliot Nanaimo
Pat Henry Nanaimo
Gord Jones Nanaimo
Al Murray Nanaimo
Gord Josephson Nanaimo
Ralph McGregor Nanaimo
Lyle Newton Nanaimo
Rick Phillips Nanaimo
Lea Sheppe Nanaimo
Lloyd Stennes (Pres) Nanaimo
Steve O’Hara Nanaimo
Francisco Pires Nomads
George Pires Nomads
Rob Alvarez Nomads
Ronaldo Lising Nomads
Bob Green Nomads
Gino Zumpano Nomads
Glen Jonathan Hehn Nomads
Jamie Holland Nomads
Tony Pires Nomads
Joseph Calendino Nomads
Richard Conway Vancouver
Stanley “Thomas” Gillis Vancouver
Richard Goldhammer Vancouver
Hans Kurth Vancouver
Mitchell “Ken” Riley Vancouver
Joseph Skreptak Vancouver
Rob Thomas Vancouver
Marcello Carlo Verna Vancouver
Al Debruyn White Rock
Robert Robinson White Rock
Ronnie Sinclair White Rock
Bryan Bell White Rock

QUEBEC

Benoit Frenette Montreal
Claude ‘Midget’ Lavigne Montreal
Gaétan ‘Gaet’ Proulx Montreal
Jacques ‘La Pelle’ Pelletier Montreal
Jean-Paul ‘Donat’ Ramsay Montreal
Jean-Yves ‘Boule’ Tremblay Montreal
Lionel ‘Figg’ Deschamps Montreal
Michael ‘L’Animal’ Lajoie-Smith Montreal
Michel ‘Gurt’ Guertin Montreal
Rejean ‘Zig Zag’ Lessard Montreal
Rene ‘Canisse’ Hebert Montreal
Stephane ‘Fesses’ Plouffe Montreal
Sylvain ‘Pit’ Chalifoux Montreal
Gaetan Comeau Montreal
Marc Readman Montreal
Stephane Trudel Montreal
Andre “Curly” Savageu Montreal
Andre Chouinard (a) Nomads
David ‘Wolf’ Carrol Nomads
Denis ‘Pas Fiable’ Houle Nomads
Donald ‘Pup’ Stockford Nomads
Gilles ‘Trooper’ Mathieu Nomads
Guillaume Serra (p) Nomads
Guy Lepage (a) Nomads
Jean-Richard Lariviere (p) Nomads
Luc “Bordel ‘Bordeleau’ (p) Nomads
Maurice ‘Mom’ Boucher Nomads
Michel Rose Nomads
Normand ‘Norm’ Robitaille Nomads
Normand ‘Pluche’ Belanger Nomads
Paul ‘Fon-Fon’ Fontaine Nomads
Rene Charlebois Nomads
Richard ‘Dick’ Mayrand Nomads
Richard ‘Rick’ Vallee Nomads
Salvatore Brunetti Nomads
Wolodumyr ‘Nurget’ Stadnik Nomads
Alain Harton Quebec City
Alain ‘L’Indien’ Ruest Quebec City
André Imbeault Quebec City
Daniel ‘Dan’ Hudon Quebec City
Gilles Dumas Quebec City
Jeff Cormier Quebec City
Jose Lord Quebec City
Louis ‘Pee Wee’ Ruel Quebec City
Magella ‘Magel’ Houde Quebec City
Marc Bordage Quebec City
Marc ‘Tom’ Pelletier Quebec City
Mario Auger Quebec City
Marius ‘Gus’ Perron Quebec City
Maurice ‘Strach Pine’ Soucy Quebec City
Pierre ‘Ti-Pierre’ Hamilton Quebec City
Rene ‘Will’ Pearson Quebec City
Richard ‘Bob’ Hudon Quebec City
Roger Morin Quebec City
Simon ‘Frog’ Forgues Quebec City
Sylvain Lord Quebec City
Claude ‘Burger’ Berger Sherbrooke
Gaetan David Sherbrooke
Georges ‘Bo-Boy’ Beaulieu Sherbrooke
Ghislain Vallerand Sherbrooke
Guy Rodrigue Sherbrooke
Michel Vallieres Sherbrooke
Pierre Rodrigue Sherbrooke
Steve Duquette Sherbrooke
Sylvain Vachond Sherbrooke
Yvon Rodrigue Sherbrooke
Yvon Tanguay Sherbrooke
Bruno Dumas Sherbrooke
David Rouleau Sherbrooke
Guy ‘Junior’ Auclair Sherbrooke
Jacques ‘Israel’ Emond Sherbrooke
Jacques Rodrigue Sherbrooke
Jean-Marc ‘Easy’ Desloges Sherbrooke
Louis ‘Bidou’ Brochu Sherbrooke
Renald ‘Canard’ Custeau Sherbrooke
Richard ‘Dick’ Rousseau Sherbrooke
Richard Ouellet Sherbrooke
Sylvain Belanger Sherbrooke
Alain ‘Zappa’ Durand South
Bertrand Joyal South
Dean Moore South
Eric Bouffard South
Gaetan ‘KC’ Brisebois South
Guy Dube South
Marc Loiseau South
Michel ‘Sky’ Langlois South
Normand ‘Billy’ Labelle South
Robert ‘Bobby’ Bonomo South
Michel “Mike” Bergeron South
Yves Leduc South
Michel Guertin South
Bernard Ploudre Trois Rivieres
Claude Gauthier Trois Rivieres
Claude ‘Macho’ Giguere Trois Rivieres
Daniel ‘Johnny’ Royer Trois Rivieres
Francois Bergeron Trois Rivieres
Francois Hinse Trois Rivieres
Gilles Robidoux Trois Rivieres
Jean-Damien Perron Trois Rivieres
Kevin-Lawrence Comeau Trois Rivieres
Luc Dallaire Trois Rivieres
Marc-Andre Hotte Trois Rivieres
Mario Brouillette Trois Rivieres
Paul Magnan Trois Rivieres
Stephane ‘L’Grand’ Poitras Trois Rivieres
Sylvain Thiffault Trois Rivieres
Yves ‘Flag’ Gagne Trois Rivieres

ONTARIO

Paul ‘Sasquatch’ Porter Nomads
Johnny Spezzano Nomads
Steve Burns Nomads
Bill Miller Richmond Hill
Mark Dafoe Richmond Hill
Larry Pooler Simcoe County
Tony Biancaflora Simcoe County
Peter Manduca Thunder Bay
Lorne Brown Toronto Central
Donny Peterson Toronto East
John “Winner” Neal Toronto East
Steven “Tiger” Lindsay Toronto North
Andre Watteel Windsor
Jason Tuck Windsor
Marty Zager Windsor
Raymond Bonner Woodbridge
Michael McLeish London
Douglas Scott Myles
Brett Simmons Nomads
James Bellbeck
Richer Geneau Nomads (DEAD?)
Shawn Gordon Boshaw London
Jeffrey McIlmurray Keswick

MANITOBA & SASKATCHEWAN

Ernie Dew Winnipeg
Danny Lawson Winnipeg
Darren Hunter Winnipeg
Bernie Dubois Winnipeg
Dale Donovan Winnipeg
Dale Sweeney Winnipeg
Rod Sweeney Winnipeg
Ron Stirling Winnipeg
Shane Kirton Winnipeg
Jeff Peck Winnipeg
Billy Bowden (p) Winnipeg
Cory MacInnes Winnipeg
Ian Grant (p) Winnipeg

ALBERTA

Gerald Weldon Edmonton
Kenneth Szczerba Calgary

NOVA SCOTIA (now defunct)

Michael Shawn McCrea Halifax Retired
Arthur Daine Harrie Halifax
Jeffrey Albert Lynds Halifax
Clay Gordon McCrea Halifax
Michael (Speedy) Christiansen Halifax East End BC
Daniel Patrick Fitzsimmons Halifax Forced Retirement
Neil William Smith Halifax
Patrick “Frenchy” Guernier Halifax
John Christansen Halifax

A personal friend of mine happens to be a Supreme Court Judge here in Eskimoland. The cops had planted 50kg of coke in his locker at work (!). The accused was a patch member of the Angels. The judge make quite a few waves when he said:

“If you think anybody would be so f-ing stupid to put that much coke in his locker, then you must think I am that f-ing stupid.”

Made quite a few waves. Judge L apologised but he told me he did it to get the case in the papers.

Another friend is a prosecutor. The Crown Prosecutors here hate said Supreme Court Judge. She has also informed me that Picton is having a great time in the penn, and that he is never, ever touched by anyone. Apparently he also has quite a talent for drawing.

One must also remember that Al Capone and Hoover also denied the Mafia as being a criminal organisation, too.

You have just proven my point.

You said:

In a 2005 raid on the East Vancouver Hell’s Angel’s clubhouse, the following was seized:
…
Glad this isn’t criminal. The president of the club was present at the time, too.

The seizures you are talking about were part of Operation EPANDORA carried out in early 2005. However, your understanding of the facts and circumstances is woefully inadequate and flawed.

The items you listed are straight from the RCMP New Release on Operation EPANDORA. However, the items were not seized from a raid on the Hells Angels club house. The items were seized over a 23-month period from 22 different searches under 12 search warrants. 17 people were arrested.

What the police and their propaganda machine do not mention or publicize is that NONE of the items in your list were seized from Hells Angels property. Moreover, only 6 of the 17 people arrested were Hells Angels patch holders.

The BC case that I mentioned above was a trial based on some of the arrests and seizures made during Operation EPANDORA. One very interesting question directed at the prosecutor, which was not answered to the judge’s satisfaction was, “Where’s the direct evidence of money going to the Hells Angels?”

So, when you look at the Hells Angels, you see that only 6 people arrested in a 23-month operation were Hells Angels members, NONE of the seized items were taken from Hells Angels property, and the prosecutor couldn’t prove that there was any money going to the Hells Angels. The best the prosecutor could do was say, “You don’t need to prove financial benefit…The benefit to the club is the reputation of the club.”

So. When the full facts are known, the Hells Angels, as an organization, doesn’t appear to be all that criminal to me, despite what the RCMP wants the general public to believe.

I never threatened you. I never threaten anyone but in the case of a more physical confrontation surprise is the best weapon. I was just merely stating that you being an outsider to the motorcycle club world you have the right to your opinion and I will defend the right of your opinion to anyone but it’s always best as an outsider not to comment on such things in public. Even with the ignonomy of the internet.

1 - more than 20 kilograms of methamphetamine

2 - more than 20 kilograms of cocaine

3 - more than 70 kilograms of marijuana

4 - Restricted and Prohibited Weapons which include 5 Handguns, fully automatic weapons including silencers, 11 sticks of dynamite with detonation cord and blasting caps, 4 grenades and an assortment of ammunition

5 - more than $200,000 Canadian currency

6 - 250 kilograms of Methylamine (a precursor for the production of ecstasy)

7 - 2 methamphetamine laboratories

Glad this isn’t criminal. The president of the club was present at the time, too.

You are partially correct regarding the “criminal organization” thing. In 2005, in Ontario, a judge ruled that the Hells Angels were a criminal organization on the grounds that two guys wore their Hells Angels patches when the visited the home of businessmen allegedly for the purpose of extorting money. They demanded $75,000 from the businessmen because he sold them outdated equipment for stealing satellite TV signals.

The prosecution was seen as a test of the 1997 revisions to the Canada’s Criminal Code which provided for a prison sentence of 5 - 14 years for people who commit crimes “for the benefit of, at the direction of, or in association with” an alleged criminal organization.

The judge in the aforementioned case said that the men had relied on the club’s reputation to achieve their ends because they “presented themselves not as individuals, but as members of a group with a reputation for violence and intimidation,” Thus, through selective wording a judge turned a case where only two guys in biker gear went to some guys house for whatever reason into a ruling that these two guys were acting on behalf of and in association with hundreds of other people in a club. By that simple wording, the authorities could kill two birds with one stone; achieve their stated objectives to put a dent in the Hells Angels and to support the legislation.

They Canadian government needed to give legitimacy to the criminal code revisions that were and still are being widely criticized as being far too overreaching. It limits the freedom of association and it creates a situation where anyone could be found guilty of a crime simply because they belong to a group of people rather than for something that they themselves did.

There are similar rulings in Quebec. However, those rulings in Ontario and Quebec are specific to those particular cases and, in no way, allow the courts to make a universal and blanket statement or determination that the Hells Angels are a “criminal organization.”

In fact, just a few days ago, 27 March 2008, the British Columbia Supreme Court rejected an attempt by the police to have the Hells Angels declared a criminal organization. The judge held that there was insufficient evidence to find that the Hells Angels member was working for a criminal investigation. He was cleared of all charges.

The judge was extremely critical of the police and the police’s attempts to twist and misinterpret the evidence in order to achieve their goals of having and entire organization declared to be a criminal organization. The judge said that the Crown was over-reaching and over-stretching their interpretations and inferences of the evidence. She said the Crown was speculating. and that “the evidence was weak.”

Thus, although the Hells Angels have been declared to be a criminal organization in a very few specific cases in Ontario and Canada, the Canadian courts have not yet made the universal ruling that they are, in fact, a criminal organization.

The police propaganda would have you believe otherwise, but despite more than a decade of trying, through honest and not so honest attempts, to have the Hells Angels declared a criminal organization, the police have failed to do so.

The Hells Angels, and other clubs, are definitely an anti-establishment organization. As such, they tend to attract people who live on the fringes of society. Thus, there are criminals who are members of the Hells Angels, but there are also doctors, lawyer, accountants, stock brokers, etc. who have never committed a crime. It is unfair and ridiculous to declare an entire organization to be a criminal organization because of the action of a few members.

As far the Pickton case goes, what was the alleged involvement of the Hells Angels, apart from allegations that the Picktons and Chubb knew and partied with the angels occasionally. The police explored any possible Hells Angels connection and didn’t find anything substantive. So, if you know something about their involvement, then you should probably let the police know.

Wrenchbender wasn’t threatening you. It’s just that you are speaking from ignorance and mis-information on this issue. And, while it’s safe to say such things online, it could get you in a bit of trouble out in the “real world.”

And yes, I agree that many things that the gangs do are unnecessarily criminalised, but the means do not justify the ends. If you knew their involvement in the Picton case here you might change your mind.

Is this a threat?

The sporty was togeather and now I ripped it all apart again for engine work and fresh paint. I decided a decent paint job was finally in order instead of black Krylon that I’ve used and trusted for so many years. I’m also having 1200 valves installed in my 883 heads and it’s ported and polished for super go-fast ability able to make loud noise really fast between bar stops.

Kimchipig is an interesting character. Usually witty and amusing. I haven’t really decided if the two comments here were inteded to be witty or serious at face value. I hope they were meant to be witty…otherwise, it would show a remarkable degree of ignorance.

It’s hard/sad to believe that someone would actually buy the whole police/media line that bikers are all drug-dealing, murdering criminals, that Motorcycle Clubs are organized criminal gangs, etc.

However, as you know, people that aren’t a part of it will never understand.

I think those comments are best kept to yourself.