Ruminations in Korea

Comment by sumiyoshipilgrim

21 March 2006 @ 6:33 am

All excellent points. I’m still amazed by the complaints co-workers make and my hagwon is one of the better ones. Things like 10 minutes breaks between classes are too short (can’t get outside for a smoke) and the occasional early class. It’s even more irritating when they don’t know how bad hagwons can really be. Good point about the embassy…can’t believe people would actually contact diplomatic authorities over something as trivial as a 30 minute commute to work! Funny sh*t.

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21 March 2006 @ 7:55 am

Why you Should not Teach in Korea…

There are two very long and interesting posts written by expat lawyers in Korea talking about why foreigners should not come to Korea to teach English. The authors, Brendan Carr and Jeff Harrison focus their attention on private institute teachers thou…

Comment by Ziggy Freud

21 March 2006 @ 9:56 am

Very well written. If I had a blog of my own I’d definitely be linking to this post.

If more of these so-called “teachers” simply went home, the ESL teaching environment in Korea would instantly and vastly improve for the few profesionally qualified and certified teachers who remain behind. Their professional qualifications and skills would be in greater demand at greater price, and the higher quality instruction would provide a much more beneficial learning experience for the students.

“Free Talking Hour” is not actual ESL instruction.

And for the rest of us here who are not teachers, we would not be automatically lumped into the group of “drunken whining expats” Koreans so often, and so rightly complain about.

Comment by The Goat

21 March 2006 @ 12:43 pm

Interesting read but there are two things I would like to point out.

The first being:

“Regardless of how bad any foreign teacher has is treated at any given language institute, the Korean teachers at that same institute have are treated worse.”

I agree with that statement but there are always people who are worse off in pretty much every situation. Trivializing a problem due to others having it worse is a sure way to get nothing done.

The second is lumping all English teachers in the same category - basically running with the stereotype. Bloggers are often careful not to sterotype Korea, but feel it is fair game for anybody else…why is that? Believe it or not, there are people who have actually *gasp* chosen TESL/TEFL as their profession. They do research and attempt to get published, and increase the knowledge base of SLA. I do agree with the generalization that many problems are brought on by themselves.

As for the article itself, the writer may have a point or two but blew all credibility with his outrageous comparisons and suggestions.

I think it is pretty clear what I do - I teach. I am continuing my education as I find it a fascinating and underdeveloped area of study considering the sheer quantity of people studying second (and more) languages.

There are asshole hacks in this line of work, but please show me a profession where these people are not present.

Comment by The Goat

21 March 2006 @ 12:45 pm

p.s. Nice new set up.

Comment by Jeff in Korea

21 March 2006 @ 1:50 pm

Comment by The Goat:

Interesting read but there are two things I would like to point out.

The first being:

“Regardless of how bad any foreign teacher has is treated at any given language institute, the Korean teachers at that same institute have are treated worse.”

I agree with that statement but there are always people who are worse off in pretty much every situation. Trivializing a problem due to others having it worse is a sure way to get nothing done.”

I don’t know if you read the next paragraph or understood it correctly, but I SPECIFICALLY and deliberately went out of my way to say that I’m not trivalizing the poor and illegal treatment just because someone has it worse. I clearly indicated that I mentioned Korean teachers having it worse because they do not sympathize with your plight and it does you much more harm than good to complain to the Korean teachers about your treatment. Thus, to sum it up, it’s not trivial that these things happen, but don’t complain about how bad you have it to someone who has it worse, because they don’t appreciate it and they resent you for it. Try reading this paragraph again:

I don’t say this to suggest that because foreign teachers are treated better, it is ok for the institutes to get away with the things they do.  I mention this to say that when foreigners complain to the Korean teachers about their situation and working conditions, the Korean teachers can, in no way, sympathize with the foreigners.  The Koreans wish they had it as bad as the foreigners, and they resent the Foreigners for complaining when they have it so good comparatively.

As to your second point,

The second is lumping all English teachers in the same category - basically running with the stereotype. Bloggers are often careful not to sterotype Korea, but feel it is fair game for anybody else…why is that? Believe it or not, there are people who have actually *gasp* chosen TESL/TEFL as their profession. They do research and attempt to get published, and increase the knowledge base of SLA.

I didn’t say anything about ALL English teachers. In each instance I clarified the specific group I was referring to. With regard to professionalism, i simply quoted the social and cultural fact that pointed out by the State Department that “institute teacher” is not considered a “professional occupation by “some” (read “almost all”)Koreans. My own comment was that I believe very few institute teachers are professionally trained. It should be clear to you that if I say “very few”, I am acknowledging that there are SOME trained and qualified teachers out there. Or course there are. However, these precious few are overshadowed by the multitudes that are not.

You also say that I “blew all credibility with [my]outrageous comparisons and suggestions.” What outrageous comparisons are you talking about? Every example I gave and every comparison I made are things that I have witnessed personally, and, in some cases, quite often.

What outrageous suggestions are you talking about?

Comment by The Goat

21 March 2006 @ 4:11 pm

Alas, it would seem as though I must apologize then clarify.

“While reading a post written by Brendon Carr on Marmot’s Hole, my blood pressure began to rise steadily.” (I suck at html)

I must admit I felt the same when I started to read this. I jumped to the conclusion that it was just another post by somebody outside the industry who insisted on stereotyping based on the biased coverage of the media. I have probably seen as many of those as you (and I) have seen of the whiners. You generalized then qualified. I read what I ‘wanted’ to read and not what was written. As such, I apologize.

As for the clarification, I was not very clear when I stated the original article - meaning the drivel in the Times.

I stand by my feelings about Mr. Carr’s article - it is rife with stereotypes about teachers and Korean’s.

Comment by The Goat

21 March 2006 @ 4:13 pm

Not only do I suck at html, editing too…

it is rife with stereotypes about teachers and Koreans.

Comment by Ziggy Freud

21 March 2006 @ 4:35 pm

blew all credibility with his outrageous comparisons and suggestions.

Not to be too much of an asshole by pointing this out, and I hope to do so as delicately as possible, but come on Goat, you know the part of this thread about the stereotypical whining and overreacting English teacher?

You just fit the mold with great precision.

Read the posts first, then comment.

You’re a qualified and certified professional and probably take pride in your work as an ESL teacher, but your off-the-cuff complaints came across as the typical “got-nothing-else-better-to-do-with-my-life-so-I’ll-go-to-Korea-and-teach-English” kind of so-called “teachers” the original post was written about.

And, I’m curious. What about Brendon and Jeff’s suggestion that “you always have the freedom to leave Korea and go home if you are being unfairly treated” do you find outrageous? Your Korean colleagues do not have that particular option, you know?

Respectfully submitted for your consideration.

ZF

Comment by Nathan B.

21 March 2006 @ 7:45 pm

Jeff, your point #2 was not supported at all. I completely disagree with you. You seem to have extensive experience dealing with the problem EFL teachers, but that segment you deal with is only a very small cross-section of the total population.

As for my own experience, I would say that there were very few problems in my old hagwon relating to anything other than finances, the usual bone of contention being a failure to live up to the contract by the employer. This happened several times to me, but, with the contract in hand, I was able to politely, but firmly, receive what I was due. I was lucky that the school complied.

Your comments are dress and behavior are well-taken, and, indeed, at my old hagwon, and my present university, I always dress formally, usually in a suit.

Your anecdote about the 30 minute commute time was hilarious, but can’t be taken seriously as a representative complaint of the foreign English teaching community.

I don’t understand why you are talking about foreign EFL instructors who complain to their Korean co-workers about their conditions. What caused you to bring this up, and who are you talking about? I’ve rarely heard any foreigners do this. Finally, if foreign English teachers press for the fulfilment of their employer’s contractual obligations, it makes it easier for the Korean English teachers to do the same.

Comment by Kevin Kim

21 March 2006 @ 7:59 pm

Jeff,

All good points. I agree that foreigners are often the cause of their own problems, and wholeheartedly agree that the situation for Korean teachers is worse than it is for foreigners. Not a single place I’ve worked at has contradicted that insight, including the university I’m at now. While I consider my own job here rather cushy in comparison to the hagwon “scut” work I’d done previously, my Korean colleagues face longer hours, lower pay, fewer (or even NO) benefits, and often no contracts.

I do think, though, that we old farts can speak with authority about the obvious problems with the system because we have experience and a measure of common sense (common sense either as a natural gift, or as something earned through hard knocks). I still have sympathy for the younger folks who arrive without a clue and find themselves trapped in a very unfriendly system.

Kevin

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21 March 2006 @ 8:10 pm

Speaking of English teachers…

You should definitely read two posts on the subject; first, Brendon Carr’s post over at The Marmot’s Hole and then Jeff’s excellent followup, in that order.  And be sure to hit each comment section as well.

……

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21 March 2006 @ 9:00 pm

A Public Service Annoucement …

Very often I receive emails from readers asking me for advice about coming to Korea to work. Usually I am very happy to help and if the person is polite to me, I’ll respond with great detail. But now I…

Comment by Nathan B.

21 March 2006 @ 9:12 pm

Kevin, do you really think that “The majority of foreign English teachers bring the majority of their problems on themselves,” as Jeff wrote? I fail to understand how one can say “hagwon owners routinely violate their contracts and cheat their foreign (and Korean) employees” and then say “The majority of foreign English teachers bring the majority of their problems on themselves.” The two are mutually exclusive.

Also, have you really seen a lot of foreign EFL-ers complaining to their Korean co-workers about their salaries? I haven’t, but perhaps everyone has different experience.

To everybody: who exactly are these “The post dealt with whinging [sic] English teachers who voluntarily put themselves into situations and then scream and yell and cry when some powerful government agency, lawyer, or avenging angel doesn’t ride in on a white horse and save them”? I challenge anyone to point to just FIVE such instances on the web. The original writer’s email was hardly whining.

Finally, what on earth is the point of attacking those who make a fuss when they don’t get what they are legally due? Their fuss often helps.

The remarks at my blog on the precdent set by English teachers who turn the other cheek remains undiscussed so far: if foreign instructors insist on receiving their contractual rights, then it is that much more likely that native Korean instructors will do the same.

Comment by Nathan B.

21 March 2006 @ 9:13 pm

Oops!–Sorry: please consider “The post dealt with” as unintended.

Comment by Jeff in Korea

21 March 2006 @ 9:20 pm

Ziggy, Whoah…. I’ll let that one comment through, but Goat apologized for his comment. That’s good enough for me. No more hammering him on his post. Thanks.

Comment by jodi

21 March 2006 @ 9:30 pm

I just find it so funny how some of the English teachers reading this are so quick to get annoyed. I mean really, Jeff is not saying this post applies to every single English teacher out there.

Funny how some readers just assume he’s talking about them.

I mean, if you know you are not the kind of person he describes in his post, then you really have no reason to feel threatened by what he says.

For those who are reacting with heated responses, well, you’re just promoting the bad reputation English teachers in Korea unfortunately have.

And yes, I can talk because I used to be an English teacher in Korea too.

And as one who has experienced both the English teaching job and the white collar Korean workplace, I believe a lot of what Jeff says can be applied not only to English teachers but to all foreign workers working in Korea under the employment of Koreans.

Comment by EFL Geek

21 March 2006 @ 9:42 pm

Nathan wrote:

To everybody: who exactly are these “The post dealt with whinging [sic] English teachers who voluntarily put themselves into situations and then scream and yell and cry when some powerful government agency, lawyer, or avenging angel doesn’t ride in on a white horse and save them”? I challenge anyone to point to just FIVE such instances on the web. The original writer’s email was hardly whining.

Take a look at Daves Cafe or the other expat boards and you’ll find several posts about it. Also there are several obscure blogs that you could find or just hang out at any club in Itaewon/Hongdae and talk to random expats - you’ll find someone whining on that topic.

Comment by Jeff in Korea

21 March 2006 @ 9:51 pm

Comment by Nathan B.

Jeff, your point #2 was not supported at all. I completely disagree with you. You seem to have extensive experience dealing with the problem EFL teachers, but that segment you deal with is only a very small cross-section of the total population.

Well, two points…First, I did support my point. I mentioned english teachers not reading their contracts before they come, not checking on the institute’s reputation before they come, and not clarifying points of the contract before they come. I also mentioned some teachers not getting any respect because of the way they dress and act and because they lack proper training for their job. Furthermore, I mentioned the troubles brought on by the cultural faux pas of thinking they are on equal footing with the employer, getting confrontational with the institute directors, complaining to Korean co-workers, threatening legal action as a first line of attack,and thinking they enjoy some special privilege as a foreigner. I mentioned english teachers assuming the institute breached the contract, when very often it is the teacher who broke the contract first, knowingly or unknowingly.

Do you REALLY think that I offered no support at all for my assertion that English teachers bring the majority of their problems on themselves? If so, you are beyond all help and reason.

A breach of a contract term is not a problem per se. It is a situation that needs to be rectified. It can often be resolved without becoming a problem if the foreign teacher attempts to deal with the situation the way that it is usually dealt with in Korean culture.

I don’t understand why you are talking about foreign EFL instructors who complain to their Korean co-workers about their conditions. What caused you to bring this up, and who are you talking about? I’ve rarely heard any foreigners do this. Finally, if foreign English teachers press for the fulfilment of their employer’s contractual obligations, it makes it easier for the Korean English teachers to do the same.

I am talking about it because I hear it from Koreans very often. I hear them talk about the the foreign teachers complaing to them about their conditions and how the owners do treat them fairly. More aggregious is when I hear that teachers are complaining to the students about the owner and working conditions.

As for teachers leading some crusade that also “makes it easier” for the Korean English teachers to press for the fulfillment of their contractual provisions, please see Kevin’s comment above. I personally have never heard of a Korean institute employee who has a signed employment contract with the institute. I would guess that there are very very very few who do.

And finally, I made it clear that my two points were based on Bayesian probability and subject to Popperian falsification.

Comment by Jeff in Korea

21 March 2006 @ 10:16 pm

Comment by Nathan B.

I fail to understand how one can say “hagwon owners routinely violate their contracts and cheat their foreign (and Korean) employees” and then say “The majority of foreign English teachers bring the majority of their problems on themselves.” The two are mutually exclusive.

They are not mutually exclusive. They are neither contradictions or alternatives. There can be a breach of contract that is rectified and therefore not a problem. It only becomes a problem when it cannot be resolved amicably. Also, more pointedly, if an English teacher knows that an institute has a reputation for screwing foreign teachers and chooses to go there and ends up getting screwed, he brought that problem on himself. That is not a mutually exclusive situaiton. He was screwed and he brought the screwing on himself. Similarly, if an adult fails to perform his due diligence and check on the instutute’s reputation then I argue that the brought the screwing onto himself.

To everybody: who exactly are these “The post dealt with whinging [sic] English teachers who voluntarily put themselves into situations and then scream and yell and cry when some powerful government agency, lawyer, or avenging angel doesn’t ride in on a white horse and save them”? I challenge anyone to point to just FIVE such instances on the web.

Side note: Whinge is a good word meaning basically the same as “whining”. To complain or protest, especially in an annoying or persistent manner.

And you say:

Finally, what on earth is the point of attacking those who make a fuss when they don’t get what they are legally due? Their fuss often helps.

Because there are other ways of resolving things without “making a fuss”. The “making a fuss” approach should the be last possible course of action, not the first.

Comment by Kevin Kim

21 March 2006 @ 10:40 pm

Nathan,

I think a lot of foreigners bring problems down on themselves. Many– perhaps most– have trouble adjusting to life in Korea, especially if they’re Westerners. Many live here for years without gaining much proficiency in the language and– like immigrants who do the same in North America– often become part of the embittered wing of the expat community, hanging out at bars, sticking mainly to Western food, doing what they can to avoid the culture they’ve chosen to be involved with. Such folks have little clue about the surrounding culture, often reacting against it with anger instead of with curiosity and a determination to learn.

This is why I’m always happy to see people who, like yourself, are making efforts to learn Korean. But I have no illusions that most expats are taking this route. I think a lot* of expats are here for “easy” money (generally easier to make illegally than under contract), funding their next backpacking trip, grabbing ass, gaining so-called “life experience.” Such folks aren’t particularly deep, but they are numerous.

[*I wouldn’t be able to say “most” without statistics, but my personal impression from years in the hagwon circuit is that “most” might be the right descriptor.]

Having worked at a few hagwons before settling down at Smoo, I can confirm that many hagwons are populated with maladjusted freaks. This isn’t to denigrate the hard work being done by people who are either trained teachers or who have a natural talent for teaching; it’s simply a sad fact of how hagwons are, and a reflection of lax hiring policies.

My first hagwon– the one whose boss I sued– was freak-heavy. I and my buddy Tom were about the only truly sane people there. My second hagwon featured a host of illegal teachers, a hapless weonjang, and two owners (one American, one Korean) with no ethical sense at all. The American ended up cutting and running when he saw that the hagwon wasn’t going to survive.

Jeff spends a lot of time in his post talking about a common form of hagwon prole: the guy with the long hair, the unkempt appearance, the slovenly manners, and an arrogant sense of entitlement. These are the kinds of people who make problems for themselves, and they are legion. I agree with everything Jeff said about them.

I already lodged respectful disagreement with Brendon Carr re: chastising the naive for being naive. Some compassion is called for, and not merely for those who’ve been “truly” burned by evil bosses.

Regarding job research done online: it doesn’t take much online research to discover that teaching in Korea is problematic at best, which means that many of the folks registering surprise could have saved themselves some stress by finding out what they might be in for: they might get burned, but they’ll at least know the hammer’s going to be fall, and be ready for it.

If Jeff’s and Brendon’s basic point is that (as Brendon[?] colorfully puts it) you can expect to get bitten if you choose to swim in the shark tank, then I’d agree. The news about working in Korea is out there and available. There’s little cause for surprise– which in turn means one should be mentally and financially prepared for ugly eventualities.

As a know-nothing 20-something in 1994, I wasn’t prepared. I got my first hagwon job through a family connection: my #3 Adjoshi (one of Mom’s cousins) knew the weonjang of the hagwon where I eventually began work. Adjoshi, probably as naive as I was about the true nature of hagwons and their bosses, was shocked at how I was treated in 1995, when my contract was close to expiry. The lawsuit I initiated, and the libel suit my boss initiated against me, caused a lot of stress for my friends, family, and close relatives. If I had it all to do over again, I doubt I’d fight for that money. The emotional cost– not just to me, but to people I loved– was too much. So now, at the age of 36, when I read Jeff’s line about settling financial issues “over dinner and/or drinks” as opposed to initiating a lawsuit, I nod in agreement. Jeff knows what he’s talking about.

In my own comment over at the Marmot’s Hole, though, I hope I made clear that I sympathize with the teachers who’ve been burned, who entered Korea with a sense of fair play, and find themselves shocked at the callousness with which their bosses treat them. Theatrical comparisons to third-world working conditions are out of line, but (loud) complaints about unscrupulous bosses are perfectly legitimate. This is why I can’t fully condemn the writer of that article.

Anyway– there we are. The basic answer to your question, Nathan, is that I do think plenty of foreigners cause their own problems, but I hope I’ve made clear what types of foreigners these are. I also think that many foreigners are simply screwed over by their bosses, and I sympathize with that group because they probably weren’t trying to be assholes while in Korea– they were simply naive. Naivete isn’t the sin it’s being made out to be. Young folks bitten by the travel bug, raring to visit new places and explore different cultures, aren’t always able to see past the ends of their noses. I’m still young enough to get that.

Kevin

Comment by Charles

21 March 2006 @ 10:47 pm

I was a rather clueless English teacher myself when I first come to Korea (about a decade ago), and I made a number of very foolish mistakes–mainly not checking up on anything before I came. As a result, I got stuck in a pretty bad school.

Like Kevin (although I’m not quite as old a fart as him), I have some sympathy for the younger folks who might be a bit clueless. I have little sympathy for people acting like jerks, but cluelessness I can understand. It’s part of the process of maturing. Some people grow out of their cluelessness and some don’t.

(I’m no longer involved in teaching English–I saw the dark side of that world and got out relatively quickly–so I’m not sure what things are like these days, but I doubt much has changed.)

Comment by Nathan B.

21 March 2006 @ 10:48 pm

First things first, I was not trying to bring attention to your typographical mistake. I make enough typographical mistakes of my own, both in those comments, and on my own blog, where I usually post first and correct later. I just didn’t want to leave it as it was; I was tempted to “correct” it, but felt uncomfortable doing that. As for the new old word, I’m always happy to learn a new one. I’ve never made any claim to exhaustive knowledge of the English language, and I regularly tell my students that. Just today, for example, I learned a new use of an American English term from a student that a colleague was able to verify.

In my new role as Mr. Beyond-All-Reason (I’m trying to be playful here, not sarcastic), I do have to point out that you did provide examples of English teachers bringing trouble on themselves, but it was your claim that a “majority” of English teachers bring a “majority” of their problems on themseves that was unsupported. You provided examples of bad behavior (dressing inappropriately, failing to be polite to one’s boss, etc.), but did not show that this was prevalent behavior. None of my old hagwon co-workers was like that. I don’t know anyone at my present employer like that either.

Speaking of my old hagwon, the only problems I had there of any significance revolved around money. In each case, I was in the right, and my hagwon in the wrong. In each case, I had to show my contract to the accounts manager, and the situation was rectified. However, there were at least two others whose financial problems with the hagwon’s delinquency were not rectified.

From my acquaintance with many English teachers, both co-workers, former co-workers, and bloggers, I would definitely say that genuine non-contract-related problems in a hagwon setting are not a frequent occurence.

As for a foreign English teacher who does his research, finds a disreputable school, as you said, and goes there, well, yes, he more or less does bring is misfortune on his own head. However, I’ve never heard of anyone doing this. Most of us do our research, find a school that does not have a bad reputation, and then arrive and experience what it’s really like.

As for my comment about Korean teachers with contracts, I think the point still stands: if Western teachers are willing to stand up to hagwon owners, Korean teachers will be more likely to do the same, contract for no contract.

I read your comments about your interactions with Koreans with interest. Again, I think that you are only involved the more problematic cases.

The bottom line is that your reaction is much more of a fuss than the writer of the original article in the Korea Times. Which is worse: to write a letter, or to write a blog post? Why so many people felt the need to jump on the original writer, I still don’t know. Writing a guest column with a suggestion that hagwon owners be required to obey the law was hardly something to get angry about.

Comment by Nathan B.

21 March 2006 @ 11:09 pm

Good heavens, more typos–of mine!

EFL Geek, point taken. Like the Korean newspapers, I try to stay away from message boards where Korea-haters hang out. I’ll take your word for it that there is some whining about the failure of the local embassy to assist some bad apples, while at the same time holding to my belief that the majority of EFL teachers here do their research before they leave, get placed into a small company, and then experience life at the hagwon.

Jodi, I completely agree with you that Jeff has some very good advice (especially as regarding the Confucian nature of Korean society, and the attitude towards foreigners as outsiders).

What bothered me the most was Jeff’s approving tone of the post which contained the original attack. Re-reading Jeff’s post, what strikes me most is that he writes out of real interactions that could justifiably make one frustrated. I happen to disagree with him on several points, but I think this will be my last word on this blog.

Comment by Nathan B.

21 March 2006 @ 11:12 pm

Err, I meant the “English Korean newspapers”–but then I’ll have to admit that my lack of experience renders the Korean Korean newspapers out of my range, too.

Comment by The Goat

21 March 2006 @ 11:48 pm

Ziggy Freud,

In trying not be late, it would appear I did make it quite clear enough.

The writer who “blew all credibility with his outrageous comparisons and suggestions” was the writer of the original article in the Times.

Not too be too much of an asshole by pointing this out, but that was in a post prior to your post advising me to “read the posts first, then comment”

Over and out from this thread.

Have a nice day.

Comment by Jeff in Korea

22 March 2006 @ 12:17 am

COMMENT BY NATHAN B.

First things first, I was not trying to bring attention to your typographical mistake.

For my part, I apologize for for my snitty and childish response to your “sic”ing me. In a rare fit of conscience, I have gone back and edited my reply.

but it was your claim that a “majority” of English teachers bring a “majority” of their problems on themseves that was unsupported.

Again, the only evidence I have is my experience dealing with foreign teachers in my professional setting and in casual acquaintences. My personal experience tells me that the majority of English teachers who have problems have, in some way or another directly or indirectly brought the problem on themselves or exacerbated an existing issue to the point that it became an unsolveable problem. We may have to reamain in disagreement with each other on this issue.

The bottom line is that your reaction is much more of a fuss than the writer of the original article in the Korea Times.

In this regard, I wasn’t responding to the writer of the original newspaper article so much as I was venting on the issue raised by Brendon that I quoted at the top of my post. It really is my experience that roughly 75% to 90% of the institute teachers that call me at my office for consultation will, at some point, complain about how their embassy won’t do anything to help citizens in trouble.

The flashbacks to all of the phone calls is what set off this post and robbed me of a night’s sleep.

Comment by Adam Harrison

22 March 2006 @ 1:38 am

the guy with the long hair, the unkempt appearance, the slovenly manners, and an arrogant sense of entitlement.

Comment by EFL Geek

22 March 2006 @ 6:52 am

I would like to say that I could have written everything that Kevin Kim wrote except the bit about the lawsuit. I’m in 100% agreement with Kevin.

And Nathan, in my experience at 3 hagwons and 3 universities 80% of hagwon teachers do not know how to dress for anything other than the beach or nightclub. the same is true for about 40% of university teachers though thankfully there is only one of those at my current school.

Pingback by Occidentalism » Teaching English in Korea

22 March 2006 @ 8:38 am

[…] Here is a must read post from Jeff of Ruminations in Korea. A lawyer in Korea, he offers some good advice for people wanting to teach English in Korea, but also ruthlessly smacks down self centered whiners. One of the funniest parts was this conversation that Jeff overheard at the US embassy. Him: This is X. […]

Comment by Nathan B.

22 March 2006 @ 11:35 am

Jeff, I’m very pleased with your recent comment. I do think there is much merit to what you say; we probably differ only in degree. Anyway, here’s hoping you’ll get less stress from the teachers and directors who come your way. Cheers, Nathan

Comment by Adam Harrison

22 March 2006 @ 5:55 pm

Damn it, my above quote of Kevin Kim :

“the guy with the long hair, the unkempt appearance, the slovenly manners, and an arrogant sense of entitlement.”

was supposed to be followed by:

“Take out slovenly manners and add pointed arrogant sense of entitlement and well, that’s the secret to the comfortable niche I’ve carved out in Korea. Sometimes things are done with just the ladies in mind.”

What does the embassy have to say about that?

Comment by Alex

22 March 2006 @ 7:14 pm

Both posts seem (Marmot and here) seem to be covering legal/retard angles to teaching EFL in Korea. Here are two articles on more typical “What to expect” in a hakwon environment:
Teaching in a Hakwon part 1

Teaching in a Hakwon part 2

Comment by Drambuie_man

22 March 2006 @ 10:22 pm

I now have to run over and read Carr’s orginal. I am behind on my blog reading.

Jeff I agree with you 99%. That 1% is simply the fact that I have learned through personal experince that a certain amount of pig-headedness, right or wrong, can pay dividends here. Then again I never tried it as an ESL teacher nor anybody who I have had to have an ongoing relationship with. You gotta pick your spots.

Comment by kimchipig

23 March 2006 @ 1:45 pm

Why teach in Korea? You can make more teaching ESL at home. Go figure?

Comment by John Doe

26 March 2006 @ 2:21 pm

I’ve taught at an English village last year and was appalled by the English teachers that were hired there. Half the men seemed like child molestors, and like everyone says, they love to complain. One teacher was complaining to the director about not having cable television and demanded that he gets it or he will quit. While I worked every single day during and after study sessions (I was a kyopo T.A.), they would complain about their days off and took days off without the director’s approval. I did not get a single day off between the scheduled weekends off. The teachers, without knowing a single word of Korean, would spend less than 7 hours with the children teaching their shitty lessons, while I spent more than 10 hours not only teaching the students, but keeping an eye on them and interacting with them. While the teachers got paid thousands of dollars a month, I got a measely $10 a day plus airfare.

Another thing I don’t quite understand is why it is better to hire foreign teachers that cannot speak Korean at all to teach. It’s not like when I took Spanish in high school, the teacher spoke only flat out Spanish without any translation at all. It’s not like the textbooks were just ordinary Spanish books imported from Mexico. These students (jr high level) told me that they were not learning anything! Even though I was forbidden to speak Korean, I took extra time to try to teach these kids in Korean and English. For any English teachers out there reading this, learn some friggin Korean, please! Your students are not learning much and you’re just mooching off the economy. People like Joel from “About Joel” is a perfect example of a good English teacher. Bilingual or more is the way to go or Kyopos.

Comment by China Law Blog

27 March 2006 @ 9:29 am

It never ceases to amaze me how people do so many things in foreign countries that they would never do back home. There is even a phrase for that within the ex-pat community in China: checking one’s brains at the gate. I found it particularly intersesting when you mentioned your law firm in Pusan as I know all the foreign lawyers in Pusan and, lo and behold, this blog is written by my good friend, Jeff Harrison. I love the blog. I just never knew. I’m going to post on it right away.

Dan

Comment by Jeff in Korea

27 March 2006 @ 10:38 am

DAN!!!

Hey there! Ha. I thought you knew. Sorry about that… You had better stop on by during your next trip to this part of the world.

Trackback by China Law Blog

27 March 2006 @ 2:43 pm

Ruminations In Korea and On Getting Along in China…

Just read an interesting and hard-hitting post on the hugely popular Ruminations in Korea Blog dealing with the difficulties of foreign ESL teachers in Korea. Three things from the post stood out for me and two of those apply to…

Comment by Chris

1 April 2006 @ 12:42 am

First of all,

Great post, it hits the nail in so many ways.

I was a teacher in Korea for 8 years and am now involved in consulting with Korean and Canadian companies. I visit Korea often and the post by
Jeff was quite accurate.

Most foreigners do bring trouble onto themselves through sheer lazyness (i.e. not researching the job or the country before coming over). Most also refuse to understand or accept that they are in a different country that has its very own cultural and societal norms.

The examples cited about teachers dealing badly with differences were on target. I withnessed countless examples of this myself when I was in Korea.

To many of us go to Korea and expect it to be some sort of working-holiday or a break from our “real” lives. Then, many refuse to accept responsability for their decisions and instead of acting like grown up adults when faced with problems, act like spoiled brats.

The point was clearly made that when you come to Korea you will have to abide by local norms of work. Also, how about actually reading your contract beyond the salary clause?

There are many examples of irresponsible teachers out there. The post mentions how employers cheat teachers sometimes but not very much how many teachers stiff their employers by pulling a midnight run for no better reason that “I miss mommy and this is not Kansas at all”…

All in all….excellent post Jeff!

Comment by Frank

5 April 2006 @ 7:18 am

Very good post. Well balanced.

Comment by Scott Sommers

7 June 2006 @ 11:23 pm

I continue to be amazed at your knowledge of English teachers. Am I correct that you have never taught English before? And that you personally know no one who teaches English? I am quite impressed at your knowledge of English teacher’s lifestyles and problems based solely on media-based reports. Is that how you learned about Korean law?

Comment by Peter Kauffner

25 April 2007 @ 6:46 pm

The advice here is all, “get along, go along.” But it seems that in your own working life you have resorted to the use of violence with co-workers. I submit that there are a range options that between violence and rolling over which you might consider.

I had a contract dispute with an employer once and I went to a labor office affiliated with the Catholic church in Myeongdong. The councilor was very helpful, called the company on my behalf, and I got my 1.6 million won out of it. See! It is possible to get what is yours without whapping anyone on the side of the head.

I’d never even think of yelling at my boss or co-workers in the States. But Koreans are an emotional people and anger is more accepted, especially in response to an unfair allegation. Learn some Korean curse words, they may come in handy now and then. Koreans can shout at each other one day and make up over soju the next. I don’t what happens if there’s physical violence — that’s outside my experience.

Comment by michael mauss

8 November 2007 @ 3:54 pm

If you are tired of wearing a suit and tie, try teaching in Taiwan.

The weather is too hot for what appears to be stress reactions to culture shock in these posts.

The people are very human there, and I don’t think the Confusian social stratification is so common.

I was there 11 years, and my only complaint is that is was so hard to leave.

Comment by Need advice

11 August 2008 @ 8:15 pm

Where can I go to report a Hagwon that has hired someone who is illegal? Is there such a place?

Comment by puh

10 April 2009 @ 8:30 pm

Im contemplating on teaching english in Korea, though im not a native speaker (like caucasian). I just wanted to say your article is a big help for us who are planning to teach there. But to be honest, this is not the first article i read about these issues.

I just wanted to clarify some issues lingering in my mind. I teach english to koreans in my native country & my students are aware that hagwons of academies back in Korea are really a problem in their society. As i may say, its a known issue. So it might be that foreign teachers might really have legit issues.

Another thing, it seems you are pointing out that foriegners should learn to adjust to the korean culture. Well, I definitely do agree to that but do you know some Koreans dont adjust also when they are not in their country. I dont want to generalize them but they tend to be imposing their culture even if they are not in their country. For example, I have a friend who used to teach in an english academy for koreans in my country, and boy the hagwon really messed up. He didn’t comply with the contract given to my friend. And yes, he got what he deserved from my friend. In our society, whatever is on the contract, then it must be followed. Similar to the western world. So, do you think the hagwon shouldve known the business practices in my country? I guess he should.

So whats my point? Yes, foriegners should adjust but tell them Koreans also if they are in another country, to know the culture & business practices also. I do know more stories of irregularities done by Koreans here in my country and you know what, its their fellow country mates who are whinning about it. And honestly, ive experienced one already.

Please dont tell me that its our problem here in my country because we dont know how to resolve it. Actually come to think of it, if Koreans go to foriegn countries like the U.S.; yes, they will get equal rights opportunity especially if they have legal documents.

I do respect the Koreans for being unfazed by the influx of foriegners in their country & for them being a “close society” (if thats the right term). But irregularities in business practices is not an excuse to be committed, even if your on your own turf.

Again, thanks for your article.