Ruminations in Korea

Comment by Ziggy Freud

29 December 2005 @ 8:54 am

I feel your pain, brother, but in defense of those who write such comments [I can’t believe I’m about to defend their behavior] you have to look back at the Korean education system and Korean culture.

Korean students are taught blind nationalism “urinara-ism?” from day one. It’s a very homogenous society and even today very distrustful of outsiders. Yet at the same time, nowhere in the Korean education system all the way up through college level, will you find Korean students learning formal debate skills, logic, or critical thinking. Not even in their law schools.

These posters aren’t angry that you have a handful of dislikes about Korea, they’re angry because you a) aren’t Korean and therefore by definition have no right to “bash” the great “urinara”, and b) they’re angry because they have never learned the necessary verbal or reasoning skills to contradict your own assertions.

So, in essense, at times you are hated because they agree with you, but you aren’t Korean and so shouldn’t say such things, and at other times you are hated because they disagree with you but do not know how to say so convincingly and can only resort to insults instead of argument.

It’s just something we have to live with, my friend. You can’t change them, you can only understand them.

And to those Koreans who read this, take offense and think I’m bashing you, stop, take a deep breath, read it again, and tell me as best you can, why I’m wrong.

Resorting to calling me an arrogant white guy [a charge I freely admit] will win you no points and changes nothing, but makes you look even sillier to anyone not Korean, which of course is nearly the entire world.

Likewise, yelling for my removal from your great country is equally ineffective. My leaving will not change the problems you face; the problems Jeff has so cautiously and concisely written about over the years.

Unless Korea wishes to return to Hermit Kingdom status, the whole world will see the same things Jeff writes about, and the whole world will say the same things Jeff says. You have to be able to explain, justify, or work to change these things. To do that, you have to be open to criticism. Simply insulting those who point out what they perceive as problems in your society will get you nowhere.

In the same vein, taking the tack of posters like Sad Story or Danielle [possibly the same person] and resorting to the fallback position of “Well, America or Japan once did X so it’s okay for Korea to do X as well.” is not a proper explanation. It’s a child’s argument.

“I once stepped in poo while visiting New York so how dare you say Korea has dirty streets!”

The “He did it first” argument is a tactic that didn’t work on your parents when you were 6 and it won’t work in adult conversation now either.

Jeff has never said that he is infallible, he has only told us what he has observed while living in this country. Instead of yelling for his deportation or calling him an asshole, you might try asking yourself if in fact he has a valid point that needs further consideration and deliberation, or perhaps even action. Calling for his silence doesn’t change anything. If Jeff doesn’t write about sidewalk pizzas and crazy driving habits, the Nomad, or the Marmot, or someone else will. The advantage of Jeff’s blog is that he speaks Korean and has some actual roots here. this makes his perspective that much more valuable than the views of a casual tourist. You may want to keep that in mind as you tell him what a pathetic Yankee loser he is.

It’s tough, I know. Reasoning skills do not come to us at birth. You have to develop them just like any other skill. Just like learning to play the guitar. But keep at it. We’ll all have a better time here if we’re playing off the same sheet of music.

Comment by Jeff in Korea

29 December 2005 @ 9:30 am

Interestingly, the VAST majority of such email and comments comes from foreigners. In more than two years of doing this, I have received maybe 3 such comments from Koreans. The email I get from Koreans, is usually quite polite (though equally fallacious) telling me that I can’t understand the Korean mind and then offering their own explanation of what might have happened.

I get a chunck of such “feedback” from Americans, most of whom are still in the honeymoon phase of “we love our ‘host’ country and it can do no wrong”. However, most of the “go home”, “Shut up”, “Ugly American”, “Loser” comments and mail come from Canadians…. I can only speculate why.

Comment by jodi

29 December 2005 @ 9:43 am

Wow, I’m glad it’s not only me who gets bombarded with similar crap from both foreigners and Koreans (when they are Koreans, they are usually Koreans who HAVE left Korea and are living abroad)…oh the irony!

(I was once accused of “working for the white man’s ass” or something to that effect.)

Trackback by Budaechigae II

29 December 2005 @ 11:23 am

Jeffs Podcasts

Jeff over at Ruminations in Korea is podcasting. Or Audio Bloggin. Be sure to check out his take on Korea, blogging and why he stays in Korea….

Comment by Ziggy Freud

29 December 2005 @ 11:32 am

However, most of the “go home”, “Shut up”, “Ugly American”, “Loser” comments and mail come from Canadians…. I can only speculate why.

I can’t even begin to fathom an accurate answer to that question, but have had a similar experience. One of my closest friends and former co-workers is Canadian. He is rightly proud of his country’s accomplishments and likes to boast of these with a well developed sense of partriotic pride. Nothing unusual about that. A certain amount is quite healthy.

The difference is that he can’t complete a sentence about how great his country is without adding a tag line about how great this compares to the US. Often it crosses a border into the land of “see, you Yanks aren’t so great after all.”

It’s very reminiscent of the “Cheju-do is just as beautiful as Hawaii” statements I’ve heard oh so many times here in Korea.

“In Canada we do X, while in the states you only do .75X. You’re not so big and bad after all are you?”

Even on the 4th of July, instead of a simple “Happy 4th” comment, it is usually a “you guys are so wrapped up in glorifying war. If only you had done like we did, you would have gotten your independence eventually anyway.”

If you listen to him or to his relatives for long, you come away with the strong impression that everything great any Canadian has ever done in any field of endeavor at any time or place, has only been done for the sole purpose of making his country compare more favorably to the United States. It’s all out of spite.

I don’t know how to explain that. It’s truly strange to behold.

How do two peoples who share a common language, common ancestry, common culture, and even a common landmass diverge so far apart from each other in their ways of thinking?

Comment by Drambuie_man

29 December 2005 @ 12:00 pm

But the buring question of the day is…Do you like Kimchi?

Comment by Eddie

29 December 2005 @ 1:14 pm

But could it be, or just maybe, that those foreigners are just too fed up with the everyday incessant whinings day after day after day? Unlike the foreigners, most Koreans can’t understand or aren’t aware what are being discussed about them and around them (and they usually don’t have the language skill to participate). On the other hand, foreigners have heard it all and they have to put up with whiners who whine everyday non stop, making everybody depressed, getting them down, and most of all fed up hearing of the same complaints over and over and over.

The other side of the coin is that it’s nearly impossible to say anything good about Korea without getting an earful from the grouches. It’s almost a crime to do so. There are actually some of us who are trying to make the best of what the situation is, and trying to stay positive and experience the country good or bad. And then you have these never ending yappity yaps wallowing and puking into their soju bottles, it could really sour your views on everything. The best thing a foreigner who wants to enjoy the country could do is NOT to talk nor meet other foreigners, and stay sober.

Comment by Eddie

29 December 2005 @ 1:24 pm

Pretty impressive monologue.

I guess Canada bashing is in vogue now.

Comment by Ziggy Freud

29 December 2005 @ 2:06 pm

There are actually some of us who are trying to make the best of what the situation is

A very incongruous statement. Are you implying that “what the situation is” is actually less than positive? Perhaps even a negative? Obviously you must be. For there would be no reason to make the best out of something that is already good. Would there? And if all was well, why would you be here flaunting your open-minded stoicism?

I guess Canada bashing is in vogue now.

Nope, but apparently paranoia is.

Comment by Jeff in Korea

29 December 2005 @ 2:13 pm

Eddie,

“There are actually some of us who are trying to make the best of what the situation is, and trying to stay positive and experience the country good or bad. And then you have these never ending yappity yaps wallowing and puking into their soju bottles, it could really sour your views on everything. The best thing a foreigner who wants to enjoy the country could do is NOT to talk nor meet other foreigners, and stay sober.”

Excellent point. That is where a little critical thinking and analysis come into play. It is pure intellectual laziness to say or hold the view that any criticism of anything in Korea means the speaker is a biggot, a racist and a whiner who should go back where he or she came from. The opposite is true also. It is equally lazy and naive to say that anyone who compliments Korea is a blind, ignorant apologist.

Before people fly off the handle and make far broader and far more personal judgments about someone they are accusing of being judgmental, the listener must at least try to comprehend whether the speaker is simply spewing racist, contrarian nonsense or whether they are making valid social criticisms.

Few things irritate me more and quicker than some arrogant, pompous, loudmouth fresh of the plane (for me that is anyone with less than a year or two in country) from Somewhere Else who spouts off about how they know Koreans and All Koreans are X…. All taxi drivers do X…All Korean women are/do X…Laws don’t apply in Korea…Foreigners have not legal rights…. BLAH BLAH BLAH!

A little bit of grousing and moaning about Korea and things Korean is cathartic and necessary. Everyone does it. But there is a definite time and place. A group of foreigners alone in an apartment blowing off steam after a hard day of not fitting is relatively harmless. However, doing it on a subway, in a restaurant, or anywhere else in the presence of Koreans is wrong, callous, and offensive. That includes in the presence of friends and significant others who are Korean. While they are your your friend or partner, they are first, and foremost, Koreans with feelings.

On the other hand, if you are talking about legitimate issues, then go for it. involve Koreans in the discussion to get their point of view.

Isolation breeds misunderstanding and fosters an us vs. them mentality, and isolation fueled with alcohol makes it worse. I agree that not hanging out exclusively with foreigners and staying away from the booze can greatly improve people’s stay in Korea.

At the same time, why try to just get along and make the best of the situation. Why not make the best of the situation and also try to make the situation better?

Comment by Gene

29 December 2005 @ 3:46 pm

Just a quick question: Would you want to apply for Korean citizenship?

Comment by Jeff in Korea

29 December 2005 @ 4:13 pm

No. Not unless Korea allowed dual citizenship. If Korea allowed dual citizenship, then I would apply tomorrow.

Comment by Paul

30 December 2005 @ 12:33 am

Jeff,

Great audio post.

I don’t think how a person reacts to your blog depends on whether s/he is Korean, Foreigner, or a Korean-Foreigner. It probably just so happens that those who are able to read and understand your posts and desire to communicate with you via e-mail happen to be expats.

I think the source of misunderstanding is pretty fundamental. You often blog about the parts of Korea that appear counterproductive, hypocritical or simply negative. Some people see that as you being negative, unappreciative, or morally imperialistic–labels that are typically attributed to an outsider. Those labels are typically not attached to an insider, because an insider is just trying to live his life and improve the world around him.

It seems pretty clear to me that you blog about Korea because you genuinely love Korea and want to improve Korean society. The problem is that some see you as a foreigner who has failed to appreciate Korea even after 15 years. The way I see it, you are a Korean ahjussi, except that you have white-skin and speak good English.

As a result of your education and training, you are well-equipped to identify the problems, analyze the root issues and fix the ills that plague Korean society. I hope you will continue to do what you can to bring reform where it is needed.

Comment by Jeff in Korea

30 December 2005 @ 1:26 am

Paul,

I completely agree with you. I worte about that exact think in one of my very first posts back in November of 2003.

http://jeffinkorea.blogs.com/ruminations_in_korea/2003/11/ignore_the_man_.html

Comment by Ziggy Freud

30 December 2005 @ 9:34 am

The way I see it, you are a Korean ahjussi, except that you have white-skin and speak good English.

You and I may see him that way, but up here in Seoul at least, there is a derogatory term for people like Jeff [and myself] that I hear from Korean lips far too often.

We can live here for the remainder of our lives and not be accepted as Korean. Hell, Bob Holley isn’t looked on as Korean and he even changed his citizenship. He’s still the “miguk saram” on TV. Always will be.

Have you ever been called a “gyeran” jeff?

You know, white on the outside and yellow on the inside? I hear that a couple times a month, and it’s never meant as a compliment.

Comment by Jeff in Korea

30 December 2005 @ 10:12 am

HA..Never been called that Before. Usually Koreans in Pusan are quite kind about it. The will say things like “he’s just about Korean” or “He’s Korean, but his skin is white because he ate some bad medicine when he was young.” From foreigners I often hear odd little things like, “You and the other Koreans…”

Comment by Ziggy Freud

30 December 2005 @ 11:16 am

For such a small country there is a lot of difference between regions. I always like getting out of Seoul and heading south or east for a weekend to visit friends and family. On average, the people are friendlier. This is probably true of most big crowded cities, but you can sure feel the tension here that gradually eases once you get on the highway headed out of town.

The same people who call me an egg here in Seoul, have another word they use for my “Kyopo” friends. They call these people “bananas”, for the exact opposite reason they call me an egg. Yellow on the outside and white on the inside.

Anyway, I was just thinking…[off-topic alert]

What are the odds that two of Korea’s most famous [or at least most widely recognized] foreign attorneys would be Utah [presumably Mormon?] boys named Jeff? Although I think Mr. Jones spells his name “Geoff”. Do you two know each other? Ever get together with him [or with Holley the former attorney from Utah] and tell stories of your legal adventures in Korea?

Comment by Paul

31 December 2005 @ 12:02 am

Gyeran…clever! The Asian-American counterpart is Twinkie, in addition to Banana.

For sake of full disclosure, I am a Korean-American and a fellow member of the Bar, currently practicing State-side. I hope you were not offended by my calling you a “Korean ahjussi.”

I think another way to look at the problem is that Koreans are more or less fixated on appearances. You are probably used to (i) Koreans passing judgments about a person’s character based simply on his appearance (not that Americans do not…George Bush looked into the soul of Vladimir Putin and found him to be a good man) and (ii) putting a greater effort into developing a respectable PERSONA rather than personality. To Koreans, it’s generally what’s on the outside that counts (I am sure that Professor Hwang’s appearance–doesn’t he look a little like CJ John Roberts–contributed to his meteoric rise.)

Ziggy: Are you referring to Jeff Jones at Kim & Chang?

Comment by Eddie

31 December 2005 @ 2:14 pm

Shouldn’t this blog be in Korean, and shouldn’t it be read by Koreans? What purpose does it serve when all you’re doing is preaching to the converted? Don’t get me wrong, I’m not trying to shoot you down, but I just don’t see what benefit or purpose there is. Personally, I have better things to do than get all twisted up in knots over things that I can’t control.

Comment by Jeff in Korea

2 January 2006 @ 12:13 pm

Jeff Jones spells his name “Jeff.” Yes, we are acquainted with each other. Never get together with him.

Rob and I have been friends fro almost 20 years. He’s the reason I am working here in Korea. When we get together, the LAST thing we talk about is “legal adventures in Korea.” (Shudder)

Comment by Jeff in Korea

2 January 2006 @ 12:25 pm

Eddie,

“Shouldn’t this blog be in Korean”

No. Because I am writing for me.

“and shouldn’t it be read by Koreans?”

It is. It is read by many Koreans. But I don’t care whether Koreans read it or not. I don’t care whether ANYBODY reads it or not.

“What purpose does it serve when all you’re doing is preaching to the converted?”

I’m not preaching to anyone. The converted, regardless of what they are converted to, rarely change their mind no matter what anyone says. I’m just writing to me about my life.

“Don’t get me wrong, I’m not trying to shoot you down, but I just don’t see what benefit or purpose there is.”

The benefit is all for me. If anyone else benefits from it, then it’s a bonus. Part of this blog is informative, part of it is diary, part of it is rant, but all of it is cathartic for me.

“Personally, I have better things to do than get all twisted up in knots over things that I can’t control.”

Me too. I never get twisted up in knots about things that I can’t do anything about. That is why it makes no sense to rant about someone’s culture. However, often people confuse control with influence or change.

While I don’t concern myself about things I can do anything about, if there is something I feel strongly about that I can influence or change in some small way, even if I can’t controll it, then maybe it’s worth it.

Comment by Dave

4 January 2006 @ 1:21 am

I’ve been reading your blog since I was in Korea, and enjoy it. If you read any blogs out there, there are hundreds of comments by people telling other people to stop blogging.

I don’t understand why people think that when you write a blog you are supposed to be fair, balanced, positive, impartial, objective, and (most of all) write something everyone agrees with. It’s YOUR writing. I read it to see how YOU see things, to get YOUR perspective. It’s as if people are upset you have opinions. I don’t get it.

Comment by Mike

4 January 2006 @ 2:03 pm

I’ve seen you make the comment “I don’t care whether ANYBODY reads it or not” many times. At first I believed it, but now I’m not so sure. You spend far too much time responding to comments for this to be true. At least that’s the way it looks to me…

Comment by Jeff in Korea

5 January 2006 @ 2:01 am

Well, there is a big difference between not caring if anyone reads my blog and ignoring those that do.

Comment by kimchipig

6 January 2006 @ 8:25 am

I have also often been accused of being “anti-Korean” in my writings regarding Korea. I have always responded with this:

“In fact, I love Korea very much. It is this very love and the many common, noble people who slave in shit jobs so that their children can have better lives that leads me to comment on the manifest dark side of Korea. Until Korea and Koreans can GROW UP and ACCEPT RESPONSIBILITY for their and actions, Korea’s image will continue to be that of retarded third cousins of the Japanese”

The message is not getting thorough. The Hong Kong “protesters” and the “Dr” Whang lies only perpetuate the problem:

Korea cannot join the Big Leagues until it grows up.

Comment by exholt

13 January 2006 @ 8:08 pm

“…nowhere in the Korean education system all the way up through college level, will you find Korean students learning formal debate skills, logic, or critical thinking. Not even in their law schools.”

Ziggy Freud, not sure about law schools, but the description above was how my mother described the education she and others in her generation received in 1960’s Taiwan.

What are the common teaching methods/doctrine do Korean Professors use to instruct their students currently?

Jeff,

I found similar types of reactions to any criticisms of Mainland Chinese society from Chinese college classmates. One of them accused me of “bashing China” after I pointed out that the Great Leap Forward was not a benign event as she portrayed it, but a catastrophe caused by gross government mismanagement that caused the starvation of millions of Chinese. Any criticism of Chinese society or political policies tend to set them off, even after some of these mistakes were officially acknowledged by their own government.

Good luck and keep plugging away with your constructive comments.

Comment by lim

19 January 2006 @ 8:23 pm

It’s my first time to visit a blog, actually.
I’ve found the audio post very sincere and truthful.
not to mention being valid and reasonable when it comes to some critical points made for the sake of progress through open discussions.
Even as Korean, myself, I think it’s very challenging to comprehend the (mainstream) Korean mentality. No wonder there are thousand different opinions about the people and culture from both the “outsider”s’ and the ” insider”s’ sides.
No matter what (and how long) it takes for the society and community to grow further, it is a necessary, even essential, job to continue to stay critical and vocal about what the good is and what the ill is. without those who care, and without the bitter-sweet thoughtful words, things will easily crumble and people will eventually get nowhere. For that, I think those who read or will get to hear about this blog should appreciate the efforts/ the concern that Jeff-in-Korea has made/ had (regardless of the author’s main purpose to open his blog).

And, personally, I can’t deny the possibility that the Korean mentality is at times emotion-charged or very little welcoming of the differences due to the previous confucian influences during the Joseon dynasty. (suppressive, they say) It’s just a small possible example when you discuss a huge iceberg. And, anyhow, you/ I/ we gotta take it as it is; like, when you have Bibimbop, you got to eat the spinach with the beef at one scoop. It’s not Bibimbop any more if you start separating the beef from the spinach or the chili paste from the rice. Whether you like the package or not, it’s your taste and your choice.

Good luck and enjoy your ride~

Comment by Ziggy Freud

20 January 2006 @ 9:56 am

What are the common teaching methods/doctrine do Korean Professors use to instruct their students currently?

Rote memorization of truly massive amounts of useless information to the point that Korean high school seniors are walking encyclopedias.

After which, they enter college, fog their minds with copious amounts of alcohol, and believe whatever the NGOs tell them to believe.

There are more Ph.D. holders per capita in Seoul, Korea than any other place on earth, and most of them aren’t worth a damn because other than a handful of top notch schools [from which I would remove SNU after recent events] Korean unis are mostly diploma mills.

You pay your tuition, hang out for a few years, burn a few flags, join a few “circles”, and get your degree.

Actual learning is merely an unintended consequence of being physically present in a classroom for a certain number of hours per day for several years on end. At the uni where I used to teach, flunking a student was absolutely not allowed for any reason except the student’s failure to pay tuition.

And, BTW, there are no “law schools” per se in Korea.

Law is an undergraduate major in Korea that is generaqlly, but not always, followed by a course of even more mind-numbing rote memorization after graduation at the Judicial Research Training Center, or some such entity.

The system is not conducive to creating a well-rounded judiciary familiar with [much less capable of] rational debate, analytical reasoning, or for that matter, the real world surrounding them, but it does make for some very capable legal researchers who can quote citations to obscure statutes and regulations off the top of their heads.

Comment by Eric

27 January 2006 @ 10:54 am

It seems to me that many long-term foreigners, including myself, have a bit of a love/hate relationship with Korea. When I first came here, flush with the excitement and adventure of living abroad and absorbing a new culture, I would read the negative posts on places like Dave’s ESL and wonder who all these cynical, unhappy people were, and why the hell they would want to stay in a place they seemed to hate so much. Now, 6 years in (and counting), I have a much more realistic and practical feeling about things.

First of all, for bloggers (most of whom, like Jeff here, are writing more for themselves than the general public), writing about the things that boggle the western mind - don’t get me started on Korean drivers - is simply more fun and interesting than writing something like, “Today, I had a good day.” Writing about these things is not about Korea bashing. It’s about trying to get your head around things you don’t quite understand (or piss you off), give the folks back home a little taste of what you’re experiencing, and posterity. As Jeff mentions above, it’s cathartic.

Second, I get the feeling that if the people who write blogs here (again, myself included) were back in our respective home countries, we’d probably be writing blogs detailing the folly and idiocy that happens there and still be getting flamed by people who say, “If you don’t like it, LEAVE!”

I’ve had bad Korea days (hell, I’ve had bad Korea months) where all I can say is, “%$&#@ this place!” However, whenever I go on vacation (no matter how much I hated Korea when I left), I always find myself missing this place. The noise, the smells, the annoyances, the successes, and the weirdness all go together to make this place what it is and, speaking for myself, is what keeps me here.