Ruminations in Korea

Comment by DiaKorea

23 August 2004 @ 12:46 pm

HI Jeff

look at the arrogant american who cheated to get the gold from the Kind Qoreans. The Qorean gentlemen look so nice and kind. This is why Japanee women go wild over the gentle and kind Qorean man.

Jeff the whole world loves kind Qorean men. All over asia womens hearts swoon for romantic Qoran man. Many more medals woould be won by a united Qorea. and the world would not be so afraid of USA arrogace if only one Qorea was in the olym[ics instead of a divided Qorea(divided by american to keep Qorea from being strong)

Jeff arnt the Qorean men to most romantic and kind in all the world. they get gold medal because of DILLIGANCE and not cheatin like the arrogant ameriacans.

Comment by Silly Sally

23 August 2004 @ 2:52 pm

Jeffrey,

About the Korean man slapping the little waif: I have told you before, this is Korean thing — it’s culture.

Who are we to judge with our Euro-Centric values?

It’s all part of the beautiful mosaic of diversity.

You really need to exhibit more tolerance and understanding.

Comment by The Marmot

24 August 2004 @ 12:49 am

Was discussing the slapping incident with another blogger today, and he did send me the links to some Korean articles on the mishap. Don’t have the links on me at the moment, but they did mention it.

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24 August 2004 @ 2:32 am

Oh no, oh Hamm!

I really, really don’t want to blog on the latest Olympic drama to befall Korea. For that, I direct you to Jeff in Pusan’s excellent commentary on the gymnastic controversy. The Flying Yangban and Cathartidae also discuss it. I’ll say this — I c…

Comment by Karl

24 August 2004 @ 2:38 am

Jeff, I want to point out that that the south koreans claim that they noticed the judging error immediately but that they were told to file a formal complaint AFTER the event. Now I really haven’t been able to find too many facts regarding that little info but it does make things a bit murkier.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2004/olympics/2004/gymnastics/08/22/bc.olympics.gymnastics.korea/index.html

Comment by Matt

24 August 2004 @ 4:38 am

Okay, I have a few points here. First of all, that scoring error, wasn’t the only error. Reports have also been made, that the South Korean should have been penalized .2 points. An article on a website dedicated to the most popular sports network in the U.S., says that the South Korean’s score should have been LOWER than it was. He should not have lost the .1 he lost, but in the middle of the routine, he should have been docked .2 points, for an extra stoppage in mid-routine. A gymnast only is allowed 3 stoppages during a routine on the parallel bars. Videotape review clearly shows, that Yang Tae Young committed FOUR stoppages during his routine. A performer is supposed to be docked .2 points for every extra stoppage during his routine. So while he should have received .1 points for his start value, he should have been docked .2 points for the extra stoppage in mid-routine.

My next point is, even if they did mess up on just the start value, and the medal should have gone to the South Korean, results are FINAL. In American football, if they had accidentally given a team a 5th down, and that extra down, allowed that team to win the game, after they discovered that the 5th down happened, do they change the results? No. Of course not. If they accidentally penalize someone for someone they didn’t do in a game, any sport…and it costs someone a game, and they find out later, it was a mistake…do they change the results, and change the victor? No, of course not.

But the primary point is, the South Korean’s protest was too late…the South Korean’s score should have been lower. So any way you spin it, Paul Hamm was the best gymnast that night.

Comment by Hoon

24 August 2004 @ 7:20 am

Jesus Christ. I don’t know why you’d bring up the case of the Korean coach in discussing a scoring error in gymnastics. It’s a terrible thing, yes, and believe it or not, I think most Koreans would also agree that slapping a 20 year old across the face for merely losing a bout is wrong. I’m confused why this wouldn’t be mentioned independently, since I think it deserves attention on its own without being used as a meaningless addition to a argument about some gymnastics scoring dispute.

Personally I don’t really care how Korea does in gymnastics and in all honesty surprised that they even medalled in it. If you were to translate the responses to the Chosun article you cited a couple posts back, you would see that most people (that responded to that article, anyway) agree with me. They not only have the “let’s move on” attitude that you mentioned, but also they place blame squarely on the judges, not Hamm. Some even question why Chosun published such an article in the first place.

Sure enough there are people that blame Americans for “stealing” the medal but in my brief skim, I saw far few of those in the responses to the Chosun article than this blog would imply. Nor do I see any reaction from my friends and family in Korea that would imply anger. Mild annoyance, maybe, but I think that’s certainly justified in this situation.

Finally, on an unrelated note, I’ve only been reading through a few of the posts in this blog and there are many good points mixed with what I think are unfair or exaggerated claims against Korea. As a Korean-American I think there are many legitimate criticisms against Korean society and government that should be voiced, but many of the views here are merely angry or at worst deliberately misinforming. There are no claims that you make that this site is either fair or balanced, but it cheapens your views when you blatantly insult the very people you claim are mudslinging hypocrites.

Comment by Jeff in Korea

24 August 2004 @ 12:15 pm

Karl: You are correct that the Korean team is claimaing that they told a judge immediately, but were told told file a written complaint later. I didn’t bring this up before, but I should have. I can’t find the link now, but the interesting thing is that the Korean team said (in the link that I can’t find) that they told a KOREAN parallel bars judge about the error and the Korean judge told them to file in writing later.

Matt: I may address this in a separate post later, but I think there is a difference between subjective calls that may or may not be seen by judges and objective mistakes such as not starting all althletes on their proper footing. Starting someone out on an incorrect standing is not subject to interpretation. As I have said before, Hamm should give up his medal, but I don’t think that means the Korean should automatically get the medal that was given up. However, if Hamm keeps his, I could support the Korean claim for a second gold.

Hoon: A little reading comprehension may go a long way with helping you out in life. You question why “bring up the case of the Korean coach in discussing a scoring error in gymnastics.” I didn’t. I didn’t link them in any way. For those with reading comprehension abilities I started off the final paragraph with “Also, on separate issue, ” and never discussed the gymnanstics thing in that paragraph.

You are also “confused why this wouldn’t be mentioned independently.” If you will take a few minutes and look around the site, you will see that I ALMOST NEVER do multiple posts in a single day. I put all of my thoughts about various issues into a single day. It makes archiving and keeping track of posts easier.

You also say, “If you were to translate the responses to the Chosun article you cited a couple posts back, you would see that most people (that responded to that article, anyway) agree with me. They not only have the “let’s move on” attitude that you mentioned, but also they place blame squarely on the judges, not Hamm. Some even question why Chosun published such an article in the first place.” Again, reading comprehension. I said exatly the same thing. Right after the link, I said, “However, the comments to the article give me hope in that the vast majority of them are mature, responsible, “get over it!” type responses. So, before you suggest that I do something, you should check to see if I have done it already.

Finally, please provide examples of what you consider to be “merely angry or at worst deliberately misinforming” posts of mine. I’d like to know where you are coming from on that allegation.

Comment by Soopa Squirrel

24 August 2004 @ 5:10 pm

in case it hasn’t occurred to you… athletes in the olympics only end up in the competition because they have dedicated their entire life to their sport. whether or not it makes much sense to you why people are so infuriated by the men’s all-round results, the athletes themselves care… it makes absolutely no difference whether people in the US or in Korea care or not… doesn’t it seem a bit unfortunate that one man’s efforts has been nulled by a clear, accepted, and admitted mistake that people are unwilling to correct?
perhaps you may want to consider developing a sense of sympathy for people who think differently differently than you before you criticize other nations’ ways.

despite your apparent research in the recent gynastics issues, you haven’t yet seen the full circumstances. the russian gymnast did, in fact, execute her routines VERY well. the commentators on NBC couldn’t help but praise her after she finished. yet, as soon as she completed her routine, a judge engaged in a sudden, long phone call. first of all, what was that all about? why won’t the judge put out the score before making any calls? ultimately, her score was much lower than had been anticipated by the commentators, the crowd, and the athelete herself.
the commentators remained silent for a while, mind you…

it always seems like the americans’ excuse when involved in a controversy such as the one of the men’s all-around is “who cares? nobody cares! why don’t we just get on with our lives?” quite easy to say, when one is not the victim of blatant mistakes.

and, regarding an earlier post about the korean’s world cup game against spain… it seems that you did not even watch that game yourself… that spanish goal was, in fact, made after the ball had gone out of bounds.

Comment by Soopa Squirrel

24 August 2004 @ 5:15 pm

i don’t understand how this comment is made by some “knucklehead.” maybe, with your expertise, you’d like to explain why it’s not valid?

“I can’t understand why FIG cannot reverse its medal decision while acknowledging its mistake. The American athlete who won the gold should give up the medal voluntarily.”

Comment by ...

24 August 2004 @ 5:29 pm

DiaKorea, don’t be stupid…

Hoon’s comments are legitimate, and i don’t see what would make you resent them other than the very nationalistic “whining” that you accuse other nations of… an effort to parry the attacks on americans.

but sorry, reading your reponses to some of the other comments, you might very well dismiss the implications of your statements and argue that you never mentioned the word “nationalistic”…
so… i’ll rephrase…
i don’t see what would make you resent them other than the very ‘monopoly on whining’ that you accuse other nations of…

Comment by Silly Sally

24 August 2004 @ 5:47 pm

Folks,

It’s not about “national” whining and belly-aching.

To Koreans this is a racial thing — Koreans, view sports as a poetic Darwinian struggle between the races — for dominance.

Koreans have the highest self-esteem quotient in the world –literally self-esteem geniuses.

They view themselves as vindicators and champions of the Asian race.

When their true value is denied by a white man’s rigged system — there is an understandable rage and sense of victimization.

Koreans know — someday — they shall overcome.

Comment by cccc

24 August 2004 @ 11:35 pm

i see many comparasions between gymnastics and american football.. how odd, olympics gymnastics is a world wide sport competed alongst different countries, different scoring, different rules and regulation. however, american football is an american sport (apparently) with american rules. american football is not scored based on how you do that second you are judged, yes, 1 mistake can cost lifetime pain. please don’t disgrace the sport by comparing to football.

secondly, america is powerful, america is big, and no, they do not compete themselves with little people, like koreans. having watched more than 5 olympics games televised by the american media, i have to searched through the internet in order to find any type of news on other countries. i did not even know korea were a contender for the gold medal in gymnstics. Always been china, russia, and the great usa (right, talk about sour sportsmanship).

you also mention korea is a soreloser when it comes to sports. sorry, but exactly what sport are you referring to? koreans come together for sports events because they have never had a huge win, been robbed of few medals due to no fault of their’s either. coincidently, there is always an american judge in the panel. how odd.

since you live in korea, you should know, koreans are very proud of the national pride they have, they are proud of being korean, and they do not care for foreigners. korea is a very homogenius country, which not too many countries will understand, especially americans.

on the last note: wanna talk about 2002 world cup?? you should have seen how amazing it was to see all those red shirts out in the middle of the town. korea did not even win, but the national pride was there, something you would never see in america.

Comment by Jae

25 August 2004 @ 1:43 am

This comment section’s so messed up…with so many racist/offensive comments. Well, that’s all I want to say…because I feel sick to stomach now.

Comment by Hoon

25 August 2004 @ 8:00 am

Jeff: I brought up what I saw as an oddity in the post, because after four long posts analyzing Korean sportsmanship and possible scoring errors in gymnastics you puncuate it with mention of the Korean judo coach. I saw it as an effort to change the subject using a serious incident as a rhetorical tool, and I took issue with that. If that wasn’t your intention, well, I was wrong - I’m sorry. Honestly though, that’s the way it looks at this point.

As for the Chosun bit, I was just trying to clarify - you definitely do mention the “let’s move on” attitude through that first post. However, the continuing series of posts and comments by various people seem to think that all Koreans are massively pissed about this whole thing, as evidenced by Sally again mentioning that this dispute is wholly racially driven. I’m saying that you really need to underscore the fact that many, many Koreans actually think the athletes in question all did very well in fact, contrary to what people in the thread seem to think. I’m not saying you didn’t do that, I’m just mentioning it again since it all got lost in the ensuing discussion. If you look at my comment, I don’t accuse you of failing to mention anything.

I’m not going to sift through all of your posts to extend my beef with you, since if I really went through everything and had a sufficient axe to grind, you know as well as me anyone can twist all kinds of writing and take things out of context to serve their ends. What I’m referring to is the overall presentation of one issue, the lack of attention to any other sides of that issue, the perception that Koreans are automatons who believe, in “the vast majority,” one idea, and how that idea has no opposition. I’m referring to the overall air of smug superiority your posts have when discussing Koreans, or the implicit arrogance involved in telling an entire race of people that you know better. Also, the constant stream of negativity may point out some of the faults of Korean society, but the lack of any balance, and of any mention of the existant Korean opposition to such faults misrepresent Koreans. You say you want to make Korea a better place to live, and I am in support of that. But I don’t know of many that will listen to someone who does give credit to many Koreans trying to change this reality.

What it all comes down to though, is that it’s your blog, and you can do with it what you like. So I guess, go wild.

Comment by Silly Sally

25 August 2004 @ 5:08 pm

I agree with Hoon: Jeff doesn’t really understand Koreans.

Comment by scott

25 August 2004 @ 7:58 pm

CCCC: A few comments on your post

I’ve watched the olympic coverage in the States and I’ve watched it in Korea. Both show what their audience wants to see (it’s a business, you know?) If a Korean is in a competition, you know it is going to be on Korean TV and not another event that doesn’t have any Koreans. In the States, it’s exactly the same. Korea only shows events with no Koreans in it because Koreans are not in as many medal events as other countries like the States and China. Your reference to sour sportsmanship in this regard make no sense.

Secondly, you note that “an American judge is always on the panel” when a Korean is “robbed” of a medal. The judge in the Ono “scandal” was not American, but Australian. The two judges who made the mistake in the gymnastic events were likewise not American. The supervisor of the judges was American, and he didn’t catch thier mistakes.
So that’s it…no American judges making calls against Korea. I know you desperately want to believe bid bad America is victimizing your poor little country, but it’s not true.

As for the next paragraph about “proud homogenous Koreans” who cannot be understood, what is your point? That they are more likely to be blindly nationalistic and ethnocentric? Ok, maybe we do agree on something.

And it is true that you would never see the kind of “Be the Red” hysteria in the US. Do you know why? Because it is just sports. Sure, it is fun, but people who really have pride are not so desperate to prove it to themselves by whether or not their team kicks more balls in a net than another. People who truly have pride keep things in perspective. Korea has not reached this level of maturity yet.

If you want to be proud of Korea, take pride in your economic achievements. That actually means something.

Comment by Mizar5

26 August 2004 @ 11:08 am

The comments of Silly Sally and Hoon are really worth reading. They display the famous Korean racial persecution complex that foreign residents invariably come to observe even after brief stays.

You\’d be surprised at how well foreign residents like Jeff understand Korea. Koreans, typically in denial, seek out certain canned responses from foreigners: \”Korea is beautiful and I love the food.\” But as soon as a foreigner sees into Korean society with penetrating insight, they are shocked and respond with \”he doesn\’t understand Korea\”.

The problem is, he does understand Korea and has offered an objective criticism instead of feeding the Korean denial syndrome by playing the role of \”polite guest\”

Why is it Koreans demand that the world understand Korea? For Korea to compete on an international level, the onus is on Korea to understand the world and how it works. It is Korea that is at fault for blaming the world for its problems here and not vice-versa.

Comment by DiaKorea

26 August 2004 @ 1:19 pm

dear mizar5 and all others, let me help you understand Qorea mind better. Qorea has 5000 years of history and it has been invaded many times. Because of this Qorea is very proud of its olympic atheltes. it has been invaded by larger nations like china japan russia usa etc.

Qorea is like a fish surrounded by whales!!!

when people complain about unfail judging its because we have been picked on by whales for 5000 years. please try and understand Qorean mind. all we want if the failness!! but strong countries like usa pressure the judges into giving paul OHNO hamm the gold medal. It is because they are bigger and Qorea is smaller.

Comment by ...

26 August 2004 @ 3:16 pm

scott… don’t go out and say stuff like that unless you seriously want to embarrass yourself

Comment by ...

26 August 2004 @ 3:19 pm

sorry about my post earlier, diakorea
i understand your comments now

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26 August 2004 @ 5:39 pm

Asia by Blog

Time again to check out the best that Asian blogging has to offer… Hong Kong, Taiwan and China Hong Kong will get universal suffrage, says the CCP. It just has to pick the right candidates first. While on HK elections, ESWN follows the latest efforts…

Comment by scott

26 August 2004 @ 8:06 pm

Thanks for the tip “…” I suppose you are following your own advice by not embarrassing yourself by trying to respond to my post in detail. Teach by example…excellent.

By the way, do you really understand diakorea’s comments? Something tells me you don’t and I’m worried that you might be embarrassing yourself by implying that you agree with him.

Please be careful…… (by the way, the first three periods here are your name, the last three indicate an unfinished sentence; just so you don’t get confused)

Comment by Mizar5

26 August 2004 @ 9:45 pm

DiaKorea, I\’m the biggest fan of your kind of parody. Keep it up, I love it. More! More!

Comment by madne0

26 August 2004 @ 11:32 pm

I know no one asked for my (newbie) opinion but…After the highway robbery that was the 2002 World Cup the Koreans should lay low for a while.

Comment by DAH

27 August 2004 @ 12:41 pm

CHINA WILL RULE ALL!!!! AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!

Comment by DAH2

27 August 2004 @ 12:42 pm

Oh yeah, Scott, shut up.

Comment by scott

28 August 2004 @ 7:57 pm

Ask me nicely Dah, and maybe I will.

Until then, can I just say that China is truly not bad. Not as developed as Japan or Korea, of course, but not bad. Keep trying!!!

Comment by tweak

2 September 2004 @ 8:23 am

Silly Sally hit it on the head:

‘To Koreans this is a racial thing — Koreans, view sports as a poetic Darwinian struggle between the races — for dominance.

Koreans have the highest self-esteem quotient in the world –literally self-esteem geniuses.

They view themselves as vindicators and champions of the Asian race.’

Oh how true how true! They are a pack of racists as well as Americans are! Superior to all the other Asian races, gimme a fawking break.

Sally adds:

‘When their true value is denied by a white man’s rigged system — there is an understandable rage and sense of victimization.

Koreans know — someday — they shall overcome.’

Overcome what? The continuing ‘inferiority complex’ to the white man?